6. The Enneagram Copy

Key topics and themes included in this session:

  • Discussion on the cosmic laws, particularly the Law of Three and the Law of Seven, as foundational to Gurdjieff’s teachings on the mechanisms of world creation and maintenance.
  • Mention of Jyri Paloheimo, an esteemed mentor in the work, highlighting the significance of these laws in understanding the manifestation and transformation of all phenomena beyond mere physical laws.
  • Introduction to the Enneagram, a symbol combining the Law of Three and the Law of Seven, as a tool for understanding the dynamics of process and transformation.
  • Explanation of the Enneagram as not just a symbol but a legomenism, capable of imparting the power of its depicted truths to the practitioner.
  • Differentiation between Gurdjieff’s use of the Enneagram and the modern Enneagram of Personality, emphasizing the original’s focus on process, transformation, and the interaction of the Laws of Three and Seven.
  • Clarification that Gurdjieff identified three essence types based on the dominant centers (moving, emotional, intellectual), aiming for a balanced development beyond these types.
  • Discussion on how the Enneagram illustrates the potential for initiating new cycles of development through conscious intervention at specific points.
  • Suggestion that understanding the interaction between the Law of Three and the Law of Seven can offer insights into navigating processes more effectively, both in personal development and in practical tasks such as kitchen work.
  • Highlight on the importance of presence and attention in working with the Enneagram and the broader teachings, emphasizing the unity of matter and spirit and the transformative potential inherent in all phenomena.
  • Discussion on the need for further exploration and understanding of the Enneagram’s deeper implications for personal and collective transformation, beyond the personality typing approach.

Related Audio Content

From: 14 Friday Morning Teaching

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So, as we begin to work now with the cosmic laws, which is of course the great cosmic

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vision that Gurdjieff left us with of how things really fit together here and what our

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part is, I thought I would start by just doing an overview of the Law of Three and the Law

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of Seven are of course meant to work together.

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They’re a cosmic set of interlocking laws, the Laws of World Creation and World Maintenance.

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And my mentor, one of my most esteemed mentors in the work was a fellow by the name of Jyri

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Paloheimo that I mentioned in the first session, who was a member of the Toronto group where

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I worked for many, many years, and a zoologist at the University of Toronto, physicist by

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hobby, you know, a good scientific guy.

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But he and I, toward the end of his life, engaged in discussion.

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He was quite interested in what I was doing with the Law of Three and the Trinity and

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tried to give me a coaching.

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He was a passionate lover of Beelzebub and was basically on the committee that did the

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retranslation and re-edited of it under the supervision of Jean de Salzmann and the Foundation

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group in the late 1980s in New York.

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So here’s Jyri speaking about these things.

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He says, It is interesting in these days that physics is looking for a unified field

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theory that would reduce all the diverse forces of the laws governing them into one force.

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In contrast, Gurdjieff has two universal laws, the Law of Three and the Law of Seven.

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He calls them the Laws of World Creation and World Maintenance.

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They govern the manifestation of all phenomena, all their interactions, and all their transformation

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of substances.

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We’ll be back to this transformation of substances bit.

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In some ways, they are broader than any laws of physics in that they apply to all

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phenomena and not just to what we call the world of matter, the physical world.

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In being broader, they are more like organizing principles, allowing the world to be what

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it is rather than rules that can be used to make calculations as to what will happen next.

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Besides being broader and applicable both in the fields of psyche and matter, they also

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include the hazard or uncertainty, the uncertainty principle, in their very structure in a way

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that physics has never been able to do.

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So that’s an interesting comment that the one thing that I can say is that no matter

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how long you’ve been in the work, you’re hearing that for the first time because it’s a private

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correspondence that I dug out to write my book.

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But very interesting from the point of view of a scientist to look at this in terms of–

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this was Gurdjieff’s grand unified theory and that it does in a wonderful way include and

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provide for this element of uncertainty in it which allows unpredictability in a world

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so it’s not radically predetermined, although it does operate within these bounds.

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Now as many of you know, the symbol that depicts the interaction of these two worlds is the

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Enneagram.

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And you all know what an Enneagram is and what it looks like.

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If you don’t, here’s a picture of it.

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Disregard what’s written around the sides for the moment, but it’s this striking little

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set, this non–

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You could put it on the easel.

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Pardon?

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You could put it on the easel.

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I could put it on the easel, couldn’t I?

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But I’ll have to take it down in a minute when I start working on things, but for now

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you can have it on the easel.

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That describes– it’s got this characteristic signature kind of grasshopper look with a–

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so you’ve got the one, two, three, four, the Enneagram is a nine-pointed, nine points on

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the outside of a circle and lines connecting them.

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With the Law of Three on the inside on the red and the Law of Seven on the outside.

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So that’s what the symbol looks like.

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Gurdjieff was the first person to introduce the symbol in the West.

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He never divulged exactly where he got it from, but it became the basis of his teaching

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very, very strongly in his first institute for the harmonious development of Man– in

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Fontainebleau-Avon in the early– in the ’20s where it hung prominently in the study house

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along with the injunction to remember yourself always and everywhere.

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So that was his symbol and the way it was principally used in the work was to study

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the lines of movement that controlled the direction of flow and process between forces

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and to study the interaction of the Law of Three and the Law of Seven.

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And Ouspensky writes about it in Meetings, you know, or in In Search of the Miraculous

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where he says essentially knowledge of this symbol gives a human being great power.

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That you could basically throw away all your other books because it is a library if you

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can get inside it.

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So since the get-go for almost 100 years now, it has been a closely guarded and cherished

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symbol in the work.

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And to call it a symbol isn’t accurate.

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The actual word for it in Gurdjieff’s term is a legomenism.

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The closest thing we have in the English language that you could find in the dictionary is an

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arcanum, which means it doesn’t just symbolize things, but as you take it into yourself,

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it actually implants in you the power to do what it portrays.

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Now just to give you a tiny little footnote on that, an arcanum that you are all familiar

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with or most of you are familiar with is the bread and wine in the Eucharist.

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Because the whole idea is that it represents the living connection with the risen Christ.

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And as you take it into yourself and consume it, it empowers that connection within you.

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So that’s what an arcanum is or a legomenism as Gurdjieff calls it.

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It’s not just a symbol that portrays it and if you can look at it and say, Oh, I know

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what this means.

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It is actually to be taken in and like an enzyme, it kick-starts you towards what you

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are actually studying there.

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So it’s been held reverently as a powerful arcanum, as a powerful way when you really

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get how this works.

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You begin to have this swirling, Oh my God, as you see universes and universes and universes

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and processes from the most micro to the most macro.

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Very precisely nested within it and accounted for and related.

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So it’s a very deep and complex map that takes everything that’s taught in the Law of Three

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and the Law of Seven and puts them together in a very, very dense diagram that once you

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get on the inside of it, it’s, Woo!

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Yes!

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Kind of a silly question, but the Law of Seven, but there’s only six left.

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Only what?

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Six lines left.

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So…

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Seven and six.

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Seven points.

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Seven points.

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And one of the things– so here’s a question.

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The lines go one, four, two, eight, five, seven, and one.

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They follow that order.

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Anybody know why?

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Yeah?

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You divide one by three.

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One by seven.

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Yeah.

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One by seven.

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Okay?

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And you get– when you do that, you can do it yourself.

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Any of you who have a calculator function on your smartphones, you know, divide one

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by seven and see what ratio you come up with.

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That’s the number.

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As a matter of fact, if you want to need this trivia, Helen Palmer has that on her email

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address.

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One, four, two, eight, five, seven.

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So that’s what it is.

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And one of the ways that you work with it in the work is in movements.

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And you know– you now know the difference between files and rows?

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Yeah?

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You have learned one thing.

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And one of the things that you get to practice in some of the wonderful movements is when

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files exchange.

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When you have seven files lined up, and you all learn to move yourself so that you get

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in a different file.

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And so you’re actually practicing and embodying the Law of Seven and the Law of Three in the

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actual movements of your files.

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So it really is– in its original context, it’s still understood as we sort of gather

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around the hem of a very powerful cosmic tool and study the rabbit holes it leads us down.

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OK.

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Now I say that because beginning in the early ’70s and actually really, really gaining steam

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in the late ’80s, the Enneagram was rebooted.

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This time as a tool for personality type.

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And it’s– the movement very quickly got on– caught on and it swept the country.

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I would say, you know, I would be willing to guess that a good third of you in this

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room are either superficially or deeply involved in that movement.

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And it’s– it certainly has been a powerful force.

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What it basically did was to out-Gurdjieff, you know, and all of a sudden his name becomes

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almost a household name.

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And people are saying– and using it.

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The origins of how this happened are in fact mysterious.

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But we know a little bit about it.

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There was a fellow by the name of Oscar Ichazo who never quite divulged where he got his

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source, you know, Peruvian South American people, who called together a first group

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of students to teach them the Enneagram of Personality type.

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And what he had discovered by a way that he never said is that each of these numbers could

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be matched up with a distinct personality type.

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And that every person in the planet, irregardless, would fit in one type as their basic type,

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you know, and so that the whole idea of personality typing was born.

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And it’s quite amazing that for those of you that like this, that for those that it works,

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it works amazingly.

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You know, that some of you know the names of these types, you know, one being the perfectionist,

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two, the giver, the one who’s always doing for others and, you know, quietly trying to

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get their ego strokes out of it, but doing, three, the performer out there all about image,

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all about effectiveness in the outer world, sometimes with no real clue as to what’s going

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on in the inner world, the four.

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Laughter

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You’ve got to say more.

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Laughter

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And the five, the prototypic computer geek, the bookish, the learning, the I will get

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one more information and then I will be able to make up my mind.

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The six, whose basic sense of fear compels them into either a very clinging dependence,

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a loyal dependence on authority or else the reverse kind of dependence, reactivity, you

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know, I’ll kick as long as there’s someone there to kick.

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But don’t let me kick in free air, you know, fear bound.

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Seven, the busy introvert, extrovert who’s organizing, planning on to one adventure after

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the another, take it all in, the classic, you know, carpe diem type, you know, eat,

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drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

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The eight, the boss, the bully, the one who walks into the room and you know who’s in

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charge.

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The nine, why can’t we be peaceful, you know, why can’t we just all get along?

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The one who also will lose their train of thought in the middle of the conversation

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and you know, spaghetti logic and who finds it really, really hard to stand up and self-define

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because you never quite know where you stand on anything, let’s just all get along, you

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know.

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So those are basically a caricature of the types but when that took off, people just,

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you know, often running with it.

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I mean, if you want good ego bait, give people a new system to find themselves in.

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And literally, when we had the first Enneagram workshops in Aspen, it wasn’t three days later

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that I saw the Aspen Times classified for six support group forming.

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Well, I suppose the sixes are the ones that need the support group most but there you

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go, everybody’s in there, Oh, I’m a four.

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And so the main lines of development of this modern Enneagram of Personality movement came

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through basically two streams.

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There were one of the first students of Ichazo was a fellow by the name Claudio Naranjo and

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people who worked with Claudio Naranjo were on one hand Helen Palmer and Russ Hudson and

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Don Riso.

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And both of them took the Enneagram work in slightly different directions through the

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Hudson and Riso work.

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It entered basically Jesuit and then basically Catholic circles.

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And nowadays, you find that that is still very prominently represented by Richard Rohr

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who’s deeply into this work.

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And Helen Palmer took it in a different direction.

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Her background, she’d been a medical intuitive before then and a teacher with very strong

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attraction to inner work, to the whole kind of Vedanta witnessing presence.

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And she’s taken it in a direction of the Enneagram and the narrative tradition as she calls her

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association that is studying it and working it mostly with a tool for transcending self,

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ego self and developing witnessing self.

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So these are the basic schools as the Enneagram personality movement hits.

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And many of these schools are basically claiming that they got it from Gurdjieff and they talk

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a good Gurdjieff line and are quite interested in it.

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But the standard reaction of most people that are in the work to this movement is horror

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which leaves the people who’ve discovered this from the Enneagram tradition so they’re

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really shocked and disappointed.

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Here’s Moore in a kind of caustic way.

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He says in a note in this very back, No light incidentally is shed on Gurdjieff’s life or

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teaching by the pastiche version of the Enneagram, sort of a facile psychometric typology which

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in the 1980s began to percolate from the human potential movement into universities and Roman

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Catholic retreat centers.

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At the root of this free adaptation stands the Instituto de Gnoseologia founded by Eureka

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Kelly in 1968 and the Eureka Institute founded in New York in ’71.

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Those associated with this phenomenon, Claudio Naranjo, Charles T. Tart and the clever Bolivian

00:19:11.700 –> 00:19:22.700
ideological opportunist Oscar Ichazo, appear to have borrowed the exterior form of Gurdjieff’s

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symbol without a grasp of its interior dynamic.

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Yes, Georgia.

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In the summer of 1968 in July, Claudio Naranjo had a nominally gestalt seminar at Esalen.

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Fritz Perls was, they were doing seminars in conjunction at Esalen and so in 1968 Claudio

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Naranjo was talking about the Enneagram. He was the first person I ever heard mention

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Sufis and I think that there actually may be an attenuated connection with Gurdjieff

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because I can’t remember exactly the context but he mentioned Rodney Collin Young so I

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don’t know if Ichazo is familiar.

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I don’t know much about Ichazo at all. My connection was through Claudio but it was

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around before the 1970s. People were starting to talk about it.

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People were starting to, yeah. Thank you for that bit.

00:20:32.700 –> 00:20:42.700
My own take on this is that the Enneagram as it’s been developed today is genuine third

00:20:42.700 –> 00:20:49.700
force. That this movement that begins as the Enneagram of Personality is third force connecting

00:20:49.700 –> 00:20:55.700
two things that hadn’t connected in such a way that something new can come out of it.

00:20:55.700 –> 00:21:01.700
Because the people that weren’t talking before is that you had the Gurdjieff movement, you

00:21:01.700 –> 00:21:07.700
know, you had this knowledge carefully and beautifully concealed but in some sense fatally

00:21:07.700 –> 00:21:16.700
impacted. Because as you discover as you get in the groups and they’re dominated by Enneagram

00:21:16.700 –> 00:21:23.700
fives according to the type and how many meetings I sat through with kind of just totally lost

00:21:23.700 –> 00:21:32.700
mental men reciting food chains, you know, in terribly solemnital tones, you know.

00:21:32.700 –> 00:21:40.700
But it wasn’t getting out. That there was a kind of intellectualism that had come to

00:21:40.700 –> 00:21:48.700
attend it. And then on the other hand you had this whole spiritual movement. You know,

00:21:48.700 –> 00:21:57.700
the people that, the religious, the basic caretakers of the spiritual transmission lineage

00:21:57.700 –> 00:22:02.700
in the church that were falling asleep at the helm. You know, the church had basically

00:22:02.700 –> 00:22:11.700
by the 20th century seriously abdicated its role in spiritual formation and transmission.

00:22:11.700 –> 00:22:20.700
And so what grew up in the mediating position between them was this whole growing entourage

00:22:20.700 –> 00:22:30.700
of what you would call people in the wellness and spiritual, spirituality sector. And many

00:22:30.700 –> 00:22:37.700
of you are called to work in that sector, the spiritual directors, the, you know, the

00:22:37.700 –> 00:22:45.700
counselors, the, you know, the psychotherapeutic thing. So when the Enneagram comes into the

00:22:45.700 –> 00:22:54.700
hands of this batch, it’s giving the third force, which I believe is realigning, realigning

00:22:54.700 –> 00:23:01.700
the field of the way transmission is going to work. And I think that it behooves people

00:23:01.700 –> 00:23:09.700
in the Gurdjieff work and the classic traditions to come to terms with this movement without

00:23:09.700 –> 00:23:15.700
this dripping cynicism that seems to attend to so much of the conversation, particularly

00:23:15.700 –> 00:23:20.700
in Foundation groups. And it behooves the people that are working in the Enneagram of

00:23:20.700 –> 00:23:31.700
personality movement to really push on and to understand where and how it’s used in the

00:23:31.700 –> 00:23:40.700
classic work and to understand why people like Moore feel that it represents such a

00:23:40.700 –> 00:23:46.700
pastiche and shallow version of the symbol. And I think it’s really important to know

00:23:46.700 –> 00:23:51.700
that. I would say there’s growth that’s going on in the movement. A couple of things

00:23:51.700 –> 00:23:58.700
that I’ve noticed is that people start in the Enneagram of perPersonalitysonality movement and

00:23:58.700 –> 00:24:05.700
very quickly move, if they’re clever, if they’re smart, they get very quickly that

00:24:05.700 –> 00:24:14.700
this type that you think you are is really a precise definition of who you are not.

00:24:14.700 –> 00:24:16.700
But you have to find that out first.

00:24:16.700 –> 00:24:20.700
You have to find that out first. So people go through the motion of first latching onto

00:24:20.700 –> 00:24:25.700
that, and as you latch onto that, of course you know it’s ego identification, it’s

00:24:25.700 –> 00:24:30.700
ego bait, but it’s a pretty good hook. The ego just loves to learn some new entertaining

00:24:30.700 –> 00:24:36.700
fact about itself. But even in the start, and the reason that people are finding this

00:24:36.700 –> 00:24:44.700
so useful, is it teaches even in that, the first step towards witnessing presence.

00:24:44.700 –> 00:24:50.700
Because when you can say, Oh, that’s not really me, that’s just my four acting out,

00:24:50.700 –> 00:24:57.700
then you’re already beginning to be able to make a separation between just, Oh,

00:24:57.700 –> 00:25:00.700
this is me, this is me, this is all me.

00:25:00.700 –> 00:25:08.700
So it provided the tool, and it’s a very, very powerful tool in Western society,

00:25:08.700 –> 00:25:13.700
to take that first step back, because Christianity by and large has absolutely

00:25:13.700 –> 00:25:21.700
no concept whatsoever of what witnessing presence is all about.

00:25:21.700 –> 00:25:25.700
And I would test that statement against almost anything you’ve read.

00:25:25.700 –> 00:25:32.700
As a matter of fact, when I published my Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening book,

00:25:32.700 –> 00:25:37.700
Basil Pennington was in the process of writing an absolutely scathing

00:25:37.700 –> 00:25:42.700
denunciation of the book, saying that my wandering into talking about witnessing

00:25:42.700 –> 00:25:49.700
presence was just a shallow rehashing of ideas that were borrowed from esoteric

00:25:49.700 –> 00:25:53.700
work that had no ground in Christian belief.

00:25:53.700 –> 00:25:56.700
audience murmurs

00:25:56.700 –> 00:26:02.700
And one of the monks at Conyers fortunately intervened and got him off his high horse,

00:26:02.700 –> 00:26:05.700
but he did, he just looked at it.

00:26:05.700 –> 00:26:09.700
The irony is that witnessing presence is actually all over the Cloud of Unknowing.

00:26:09.700 –> 00:26:12.700
But he hadn’t read it that way, because the–

00:26:12.700 –> 00:26:17.700
And you’ll even find that those of you that worked with Jerry May at Shalem Institute,

00:26:17.700 –> 00:26:20.700
he never got witnessing presence.

00:26:20.700 –> 00:26:27.700
He couldn’t distinguish it from egoic dissociation, and he was of that school

00:26:27.700 –> 00:26:34.700
that honors sensitive energy as the highest you can get.

00:26:34.700 –> 00:26:41.700
He just was clueless about a kind of free attention that supported a non-dual presence.

00:26:41.700 –> 00:26:47.700
So it doesn’t have any bells, it doesn’t have any frame of reference in Christianity,

00:26:47.700 –> 00:26:52.700
and what the Enneagram movement has done is to give people that entry point.

00:26:52.700 –> 00:26:57.700
Cynthia, we were reading your book last winter in our Centering Prayer group,

00:26:57.700 –> 00:27:02.700
and we had a Presbyterian minister who was part of the group.

00:27:02.700 –> 00:27:06.700
He became so upset, he kicked us out of his office,

00:27:06.700 –> 00:27:10.700
and he wouldn’t have anything to do with Centering Prayer.

00:27:10.700 –> 00:27:14.700
It just totally was beyond his comprehension.

00:27:14.700 –> 00:27:18.700
Yeah, and Thomas doesn’t really get witnessing presence.

00:27:18.700 –> 00:27:24.700
I mean, he understands the movement from the false self to the true self,

00:27:24.700 –> 00:27:33.700
but he doesn’t get the movement from the true self into the non-localized self,

00:27:33.700 –> 00:27:37.700
the move from the particle self to the wave self.

00:27:37.700 –> 00:27:43.700
And we had some interesting discussions around that that I won’t go further off track with here

00:27:43.700 –> 00:27:46.700
to tell you about, but we could talk about that.

00:27:46.700 –> 00:27:48.700
Yes, Georgia.

00:27:48.700 –> 00:27:55.700
I think the problem that people who have been in the work for a while have with the types

00:27:55.700 –> 00:28:04.700
is not so much that they don’t have some relevance, but more that it seems to ignore process.

00:28:04.700 –> 00:28:07.700
Yes, yes. And this is where I’m going to go.

00:28:07.700 –> 00:28:10.700
I think the types actually work wonderfully well,

00:28:10.700 –> 00:28:15.700
and when I wrote in my book that I think the reason they saw work

00:28:15.700 –> 00:28:22.700
is that they nest on the back of a powerful cosmic ball.

00:28:22.700 –> 00:28:31.700
But the use of this is not what it is in the Gurdjieff work, the Enneagram of Personality.

00:28:31.700 –> 00:28:35.700
And the Enneagram of Personality is still stuck in a couple of places

00:28:35.700 –> 00:28:38.700
precisely because of this ignoring of process,

00:28:38.700 –> 00:28:43.700
that the Enneagram is intended to move right through.

00:28:43.700 –> 00:28:49.700
So I want to show you a little bit in a very simplistic way about how that works today.

00:28:49.700 –> 00:28:50.700
Yes, Rose.

00:28:50.700 –> 00:28:57.700
I just want to understand what you mean by process. Process of development?

00:28:57.700 –> 00:29:00.700
No, process of how the lines move.

00:29:00.700 –> 00:29:04.700
Oh, yeah, no. As the Enneagram of Gurdjieff.

00:29:04.700 –> 00:29:06.700
Yeah, yeah.

00:29:06.700 –> 00:29:08.700
How can we all get along? That’s all.

00:29:08.700 –> 00:29:20.700
laughter

00:29:20.700 –> 00:29:24.700
Let’s have a look at this.

00:29:24.700 –> 00:29:31.700
Nobody is under attack, and I swear that when my book finally comes out,

00:29:31.700 –> 00:29:37.700
the only people who are going to read it are the people in the Enneagram movement.

00:29:37.700 –> 00:29:40.700
And I’m willing to make that a wager,

00:29:40.700 –> 00:29:43.700
because the Christian theologians are going to throw up their hands in despair

00:29:43.700 –> 00:29:46.700
and say, This is too way out. We can’t go there.

00:29:46.700 –> 00:29:54.700
Gurdjieff is not privileged. He has no standing in this conversation.

00:29:54.700 –> 00:29:58.700
If they don’t do it, we’re trying to find somebody who could write a cover blurb

00:29:58.700 –> 00:30:02.700
from the Christian community, and so far we can’t come up with anybody.

00:30:02.000 –> 00:30:04.000
Not even Richard Rohr?

00:30:04.700 –> 00:30:07.700
No, Richard Rohr will say his usual nice things.

00:30:07.700 –> 00:30:09.700
laughter

00:30:09.700 –> 00:30:12.700
He talks about the process theologians.

00:30:12.700 –> 00:30:16.700
Well, the process theologians don’t get my process theology.

00:30:16.700 –> 00:30:19.700
They don’t get far enough with this.

00:30:19.700 –> 00:30:23.700
It’s still this whole emotion where we’re co-creating God’s world,

00:30:23.700 –> 00:30:28.700
but you try and show people the nuts and bolts of it, and they just run scared.

00:30:28.700 –> 00:30:31.700
And there are nuts and bolts here.

00:30:31.700 –> 00:30:38.700
So there’s no attack going on, but if you can understand yourself as this group,

00:30:38.700 –> 00:30:42.700
what the Enneagram actually– how it demonstrates some things

00:30:42.700 –> 00:30:47.700
within its original context that the Enneagram personality movement

00:30:47.700 –> 00:30:53.700
has not yet uncovered, and is in my estimate going farther and farther away

00:30:53.700 –> 00:30:58.700
from uncovering in most cases, because now in its second generation

00:30:58.700 –> 00:31:07.700
it’s creating a whole body of pseudo-truths that have the status of quasi-science,

00:31:07.700 –> 00:31:12.700
which are just taking us farther and farther away from the starting gate.

00:31:12.700 –> 00:31:18.700
So the first thing to know is that although Gurdjieff did, yes,

00:31:18.700 –> 00:31:22.700
introduce the Enneagram in the West, that the Enneagram he introduced

00:31:22.700 –> 00:31:25.700
is not the Enneagram of Personality.

00:31:25.700 –> 00:31:29.700
So it’s really, really important to just understand that.

00:31:29.700 –> 00:31:33.700
So that a lot of people that are trying to work back and forth

00:31:33.700 –> 00:31:38.700
between both of these strains minimize that distinction

00:31:38.700 –> 00:31:41.700
out of wanting to keep harmony.

00:31:41.700 –> 00:31:45.700
I think it’s actually much more important to accentuate it

00:31:45.700 –> 00:31:48.700
so that you can begin to see what the next step is

00:31:48.700 –> 00:31:51.700
for the people working in Enneagram of Personality.

00:31:51.700 –> 00:31:55.700
Because face it, people are going to enter Enneagram work today

00:31:55.700 –> 00:31:58.700
through the Enneagram of Personality.

00:31:58.700 –> 00:32:02.700
It’s going to be 90% doing that to the 10% that still find their way

00:32:02.700 –> 00:32:05.700
in through the door of Gurdjieff.

00:32:05.700 –> 00:32:08.700
So let’s get a life and let’s work with reality.

00:32:08.700 –> 00:32:17.700
In Gurdjieff, there are only– if you’re going to say there are personality types

00:32:17.700 –> 00:32:22.700
at all, we’re just stretching it– there are three, not six, or seven,

00:32:22.700 –> 00:32:27.700
or nine, there are three, not nine, and they’re actually essence types.

00:32:27.700 –> 00:32:30.700
We’ll talk more about that in one of the afternoon sessions.

00:32:30.700 –> 00:32:36.700
They’re the kind of material of your particular individuality,

00:32:36.700 –> 00:32:44.700
your unique separation, your unique beingness that basically comes

00:32:44.700 –> 00:32:47.700
from the stars, as they say.

00:32:47.700 –> 00:32:51.700
It’s a part that enters that is part of the quickening of your life

00:32:51.700 –> 00:32:56.700
and will be your default position as you start out on your journey.

00:32:56.700 –> 00:33:01.700
For Mr. G, they were basically your moving center type,

00:33:01.700 –> 00:33:06.700
your emotional center type, or your intellectual center type,

00:33:06.700 –> 00:33:08.700
man number one, two, or three.

00:33:08.700 –> 00:33:13.700
That constitutes a default starting position.

00:33:13.700 –> 00:33:18.700
It’s how you will, when left in your basic essential way,

00:33:18.700 –> 00:33:23.700
the first thing you will go to to reach out and process the world.

00:33:23.700 –> 00:33:26.700
The first way, are you going to touch it to find out about it,

00:33:26.700 –> 00:33:29.700
or try to learn to turn with its rhythms?

00:33:29.700 –> 00:33:33.700
Are you going to think about it, or are you going to open this whole

00:33:33.700 –> 00:33:38.700
electromagnetic auric jumble that’s called my feelings

00:33:38.700 –> 00:33:41.700
and embrace it through that?

00:33:41.700 –> 00:33:50.700
The point, at any rate, in the Gurdjieff work is that the idea

00:33:50.700 –> 00:33:54.700
is never to perfect your starting type.

00:33:54.700 –> 00:33:59.700
I don’t want to be a redeemed one, I mean a redeemed moving center type.

00:33:59.700 –> 00:34:03.700
There is no redeemed moving center type.

00:34:03.700 –> 00:34:08.700
In Gurdjieff, the redemption begins when you become

00:34:08.700 –> 00:34:14.700
what he calls a man number four, a balanced person,

00:34:14.700 –> 00:34:22.700
whose attention and presence is essentially multilingual,

00:34:22.700 –> 00:34:26.700
is equally at home, ambidextrous in all centers,

00:34:26.700 –> 00:34:30.700
and can use them in relationship to each other.

00:34:30.700 –> 00:34:34.700
So there aren’t these vastly disparate tempos that we talked about

00:34:34.700 –> 00:34:39.700
that William Siegel was talking about.

00:34:39.700 –> 00:34:44.700
Your emotional sort of perception is lightning fast,

00:34:44.700 –> 00:34:49.700
but often until it’s refined and worked in all over the place.

00:34:49.700 –> 00:34:53.700
And the intellect is so slow and plodding, and the moving center gets there,

00:34:53.700 –> 00:34:57.700
but frequently when the intellectual center tries to enter

00:34:57.700 –> 00:35:00.700
and talk with the moving center, it’s just chaos.

00:35:00.700 –> 00:35:03.700
Eddie was talking about that brilliantly, about his experience

00:35:03.700 –> 00:35:06.700
out on the movement floor last night.

00:35:06.700 –> 00:35:10.700
If you just let the body do it, it’ll take care of itself.

00:35:10.700 –> 00:35:15.700
But then you’ll get a complexity built in that the body can’t do by itself.

00:35:15.700 –> 00:35:17.700
But you can’t give it to the mind.

00:35:17.700 –> 00:35:22.700
You have to give it to something else that transcends and includes

00:35:22.700 –> 00:35:25.700
that wonderful word from Ken Wilber.

00:35:25.700 –> 00:35:28.700
So man number four is to transcend but include,

00:35:28.700 –> 00:35:31.700
and from there on you can go up to five, six, and seven,

00:35:31.700 –> 00:35:33.700
which have nothing to do with personality types,

00:35:33.700 –> 00:35:39.700
but are increasingly stages of the realization and the unification

00:35:39.700 –> 00:35:45.700
of the being, the five being the deeply surrendered person

00:35:45.700 –> 00:35:48.700
who has come together in a oneness.

00:35:48.700 –> 00:35:53.700
They’re balanced, and then it’s sort of like the pot that’s fully made

00:35:53.700 –> 00:35:56.700
and the five is the one that’s gone through the fire

00:35:56.700 –> 00:36:01.700
and is now a glazed pot, and then six and seven

00:36:01.700 –> 00:36:07.700
deepening stages of surrender and perfection through dissolution.

00:36:07.700 –> 00:36:10.700
Very powerful teaching.

00:36:10.700 –> 00:36:12.700
So that’s–

00:36:12.700 –> 00:36:14.700
Are you saying man number four?

00:36:14.700 –> 00:36:15.700
I couldn’t understand.

00:36:15.700 –> 00:36:16.700
Balanced.

00:36:16.700 –> 00:36:18.700
You said man number four or something.

00:36:18.700 –> 00:36:19.700
Yeah.

00:36:19.700 –> 00:36:20.700
Is that what you said?

00:36:20.700 –> 00:36:21.700
Yeah.

00:36:21.700 –> 00:36:25.700
And forgive the language, the man number one, two, three.

00:36:25.700 –> 00:36:27.700
He was writing in the times.

00:36:27.700 –> 00:36:31.700
Person number one, two, and three just sounds a little bit too trendy.

00:36:31.700 –> 00:36:35.700
So anyway, we– well, yes.

00:36:35.700 –> 00:36:38.700
Does this have anything to do– connected to the Law of Three

00:36:38.700 –> 00:36:40.700
where it’s the new arising man number four?

00:36:40.700 –> 00:36:41.700
It could be.

00:36:41.700 –> 00:36:44.700
It would be a very interesting thing to explore.

00:36:44.700 –> 00:36:48.700
Yeah, I’m glad you twigged on that.

00:36:48.700 –> 00:36:50.700
And of course you could– if you wanted to ask that,

00:36:50.700 –> 00:36:54.700
and I think that’s a really valid line of inquiry to do in yourself

00:36:54.700 –> 00:36:58.700
so that you say the interweaving of the three in the balance

00:36:58.700 –> 00:37:00.700
produces the fourth in the new dimension.

00:37:00.700 –> 00:37:01.700
Yeah, yeah.

00:37:01.700 –> 00:37:03.700
Yeah, I think that’s what we’re–

00:37:03.700 –> 00:37:10.700
and it’s that kind of alchemical fusion that the work is intended to catalyze.

00:37:10.700 –> 00:37:16.700
And that’s why all the things you’re doing and why even the very artful

00:37:16.700 –> 00:37:21.700
genius of movements, of the constant frustrating

00:37:21.700 –> 00:37:24.700
of your dominant center.

00:37:24.700 –> 00:37:27.700
Because everybody is going to enter movements

00:37:27.700 –> 00:37:31.700
using their preferred center.

00:37:31.700 –> 00:37:34.700
In Marianne, in your case, it’s your head.

00:37:34.700 –> 00:37:38.700
To try and take control of the ball field.

00:37:38.700 –> 00:37:41.700
And it’s set up to frustrate.

00:37:41.700 –> 00:37:45.700
And sometimes you get in the movements the–

00:37:45.700 –> 00:37:49.700
this incredible thing that Bob was talking about so beautifully,

00:37:49.700 –> 00:37:51.700
that you’re completely stopped dead in your tracks.

00:37:51.700 –> 00:37:54.700
And yet you weep for the beauty because there’s

00:37:54.700 –> 00:38:00.700
this continuous nurturance at the feeling level.

00:38:00.700 –> 00:38:04.700
So you’re frustrated and you’re transformed at the same time.

00:38:04.700 –> 00:38:12.700
This is all part of the boilerplate in fourth-way work.

00:38:12.700 –> 00:38:15.700
But the real thing that I want to show you here

00:38:15.700 –> 00:38:22.700
is that the one major limitation to the studies

00:38:22.700 –> 00:38:28.700
in the Enneagram of Personality movement, as it’s developed so far,

00:38:28.700 –> 00:38:32.700
from what I can see, is that it does not show you

00:38:32.700 –> 00:38:39.700
how the Law of Three and the Law of Seven interact in this.

00:38:39.700 –> 00:38:43.700
Now there’s a whole kind of funky– the first layer

00:38:43.700 –> 00:38:49.700
of what we would call midrash in the Jewish tradition.

00:38:49.700 –> 00:38:52.700
So the first layer of Enneagram midrash

00:38:52.700 –> 00:38:55.700
to come out of the Enneagram of Personality movement

00:38:55.700 –> 00:38:59.700
tries to do this with the idea of the wings.

00:38:59.700 –> 00:39:04.700
In other words, you can be a three and you can have a four wing

00:39:04.700 –> 00:39:05.700
or you can have a two wing.

00:39:05.700 –> 00:39:09.700
It’s an attempt to create some dialogue across the spaces.

00:39:09.700 –> 00:39:14.700
But basically what you learn very quickly in your Enneagram studies

00:39:14.700 –> 00:39:17.700
is that once you’ve identified your type,

00:39:17.700 –> 00:39:21.700
if you self-identify as a nine, three, or a six,

00:39:21.700 –> 00:39:29.700
you’re going to move backwards or forwards on that little circle.

00:39:29.700 –> 00:39:35.700
You may regress to six or progress to nine

00:39:35.700 –> 00:39:38.700
or whichever way it works, forwards or backwards.

00:39:38.700 –> 00:39:43.700
It’s my observation that the lines of movement

00:39:43.700 –> 00:39:47.700
as they’re taught in the Enneagram in terms of which way you progress

00:39:47.700 –> 00:39:51.700
and which way you regress are backwards

00:39:51.700 –> 00:39:56.700
from how the lines of movement actually work in the work.

00:39:56.700 –> 00:40:02.700
But if you’re in this line, if you identify yourself

00:40:02.700 –> 00:40:05.700
as a one, two, four, five, seven, or eight,

00:40:05.700 –> 00:40:09.700
you will move on that one.

00:40:09.700 –> 00:40:15.700
And you have a chance of stepping back, according to the Enneagram study,

00:40:15.700 –> 00:40:20.700
to the next adjacent point according to these lines.

00:40:20.700 –> 00:40:23.700
And on these lines, of course, the next adjacent point,

00:40:23.700 –> 00:40:29.700
if you’re a two, you can move back to eight or forward to four.

00:40:29.700 –> 00:40:36.700
But if you’re a two, you’re never going to move to six.

00:40:36.700 –> 00:40:42.700
So for all intents and purposes,

00:40:42.700 –> 00:40:49.700
the Enneagram of Personality has been unable to demonstrate

00:40:49.700 –> 00:40:56.700
exactly what is the heart of the Enneagram

00:40:56.700 –> 00:41:01.700
as it’s studied and known and entered in the Gurdjieff work.

00:41:01.700 –> 00:41:04.700
And people haven’t really been able to go through that.

00:41:04.700 –> 00:41:08.700
There’s all sorts of ways of talking about how the types come together

00:41:08.700 –> 00:41:10.700
and the ways.

00:41:10.700 –> 00:41:13.700
And somebody by the name of Daniels has got harmony triads

00:41:13.700 –> 00:41:16.700
that pull different types of them together.

00:41:16.700 –> 00:41:21.700
But it still is not showing the essence of this,

00:41:21.700 –> 00:41:25.700
which is the interaction of the Laws of Three and Seven.

00:41:25.700 –> 00:41:27.700
You thinking about something, Elaine?

00:41:27.700 –> 00:41:29.700
Yes.

00:41:29.700 –> 00:41:32.700
If I understand you correctly,

00:41:32.700 –> 00:41:35.700
Gurdjieff says you can move through all seven?

00:41:35.700 –> 00:41:39.700
Well, that’s not really stating the question correctly

00:41:39.700 –> 00:41:42.700
because there aren’t seven personality types.

00:41:42.700 –> 00:41:44.700
But you do move–

00:41:44.700 –> 00:41:45.700
I mean movements.

00:41:45.700 –> 00:41:46.700
Yeah.

00:41:46.700 –> 00:41:49.700
You have to begin to get on board.

00:41:49.700 –> 00:41:53.700
You have to start not with the points but with the lines.

00:41:53.700 –> 00:41:55.700
And if you start with the points,

00:41:55.700 –> 00:42:00.700
you’re never going to quite see what’s happening.

00:42:00.700 –> 00:42:02.700
So if you start with the question,

00:42:02.700 –> 00:42:05.700
Well, how does one get to three? or something like that,

00:42:05.700 –> 00:42:07.700
you’re not going to see it.

00:42:07.700 –> 00:42:12.700
What you have to see is how the lines cross.

00:42:12.700 –> 00:42:15.700
So what I want to show you,

00:42:15.700 –> 00:42:20.700
it’s not exactly obvious in the work either,

00:42:20.700 –> 00:42:25.700
but you can see in theory how this crossing happens.

00:42:25.700 –> 00:42:27.700
And once you begin to learn it, you’re going to do it.

00:42:27.700 –> 00:42:29.700
So I want to show you that,

00:42:29.700 –> 00:42:34.700
the whole way that these things cross.

00:42:34.700 –> 00:42:39.700
And I find that even in a lot of the work literature,

00:42:39.700 –> 00:42:41.700
there’s not enough commentary.

00:42:41.700 –> 00:42:45.700
There’s the tendency to circumscribe the triangle,

00:42:45.700 –> 00:42:50.700
the Law of Three, within the law, within the Enneagram.

00:42:50.700 –> 00:42:54.700
So you have an inner circle and an outer circle.

00:42:54.700 –> 00:42:56.700
It’s really kind of endemic.

00:42:56.700 –> 00:43:00.700
And you’ll see that even here in the kitchen.

00:43:00.700 –> 00:43:06.700
These constitute in some ways the three basic categories

00:43:06.700 –> 00:43:08.700
or tiers of the action, the three.

00:43:08.700 –> 00:43:11.700
And these are the movements within it.

00:43:11.700 –> 00:43:15.700
But there is a way that this connects.

00:43:15.700 –> 00:43:20.700
And I want to show you how it happens, at least in theory.

00:43:20.700 –> 00:43:25.700
But the price of this is that you’re going to have to put up with my miserable drawing.

00:43:25.700 –> 00:43:27.700
And I’m going to try something here.

00:43:27.700 –> 00:43:32.700
Bob, will you come and hold my drum for me

00:43:32.700 –> 00:43:36.700
while I try very hard to inscribe a circle around it.

00:43:36.700 –> 00:43:39.700
That will at least get us off on the right foot.

00:43:39.700 –> 00:43:41.700
OK, thank you.

00:43:41.700 –> 00:43:42.700
Not too bad.

00:43:42.700 –> 00:43:46.700
Better than I could have done by freehand.

00:43:46.700 –> 00:43:48.700
So let’s do it.

00:43:48.700 –> 00:43:50.700
Here we have a circle.

00:43:50.700 –> 00:43:58.700
And here, what we are going to do is to first put nine points around it.

00:43:58.700 –> 00:44:02.700
Let’s see if I can get approximately the right places.

00:44:02.700 –> 00:44:18.700
One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine.

00:44:18.700 –> 00:44:22.700
So I’ll put numbers here just so we keep–

00:44:30.700 –> 00:44:37.700
OK, so what we’ve done, we’ve taken a circle and we’ve divided it into nine little slash marks.

00:44:37.700 –> 00:44:43.700
Now, what we’re going to do next is we’re going to go around–

00:44:43.700 –> 00:44:47.700
remember we talked about the scale yesterday?

00:44:47.700 –> 00:44:55.700
OK, so what we’re going to do is go around here, starting with–

00:44:55.700 –> 00:44:57.700
well, Do basically goes here.

00:44:57.700 –> 00:45:04.700
We’ll start with Re on one, Do Re Mi.

00:45:04.700 –> 00:45:09.700
And then we’re going to do something else.

00:45:09.700 –> 00:45:12.700
I’ll put it in first, and you can see why I do it.

00:45:12.700 –> 00:45:27.700
X, Fa, Sol, La, Si, X, Do.

00:45:27.700 –> 00:45:28.700
All right.

00:45:28.700 –> 00:45:32.700
Now, what have I done?

00:45:32.700 –> 00:45:39.700
I’ve taken the notes of the scale, but I’ve put in two x’s.

00:45:40.700 –> 00:45:42.700
OK?

00:45:42.700 –> 00:45:45.700
And what do these x’s stand for?

00:45:45.700 –> 00:45:47.700
Yeah.

00:45:47.700 –> 00:45:48.700
The shocks.

00:45:48.700 –> 00:45:50.700
The shocks, OK.

00:45:50.700 –> 00:45:59.700
Because remember, remember that within the whole energy that’s contained in the cosmic gamut,

00:45:59.700 –> 00:46:04.700
that those little mini– the little intervals–

00:46:04.700 –> 00:46:08.700
Gurdjieff’s word for an interval is a stop-inder.

00:46:08.700 –> 00:46:17.700
So you have these little stop-inders, stop-inder, S-T-O-P-I-N-D-E-R.

00:46:17.700 –> 00:46:23.700
And so when you do this, those are the places where the conscious shock has to come in,

00:46:23.700 –> 00:46:29.700
where we have to bring something else, or else it brings in a little bit more energy.

00:46:29.700 –> 00:46:33.700
A little energy quantum packet is needed there.

00:46:33.700 –> 00:46:39.700
So if we figure them back in, then the seven slashes on the scale

00:46:39.700 –> 00:46:44.700
are stretched to actually have nine packets.

00:46:44.700 –> 00:46:47.700
Now, look at this.

00:46:47.700 –> 00:46:53.700
And if we draw– if we draw and look at them,

00:46:53.700 –> 00:46:58.700
the first one comes right between mi, fa, doesn’t it?

00:46:58.700 –> 00:47:07.700
So it looks like it’s beautifully placed that if we’re going to draw this inner triangle,

00:47:07.700 –> 00:47:11.700
the first one, the first point of that would hit right on point three,

00:47:11.700 –> 00:47:16.700
which is the little stop-inder of that Mi-Fa passage.

00:47:16.700 –> 00:47:18.700
So far, so good.

00:47:18.700 –> 00:47:23.700
But when we come over here and draw the second one, it doesn’t match.

00:47:23.700 –> 00:47:26.700
Because we draw the triangle.

00:47:26.700 –> 00:47:34.700
And the second, the point six, occurs between Sol and Si,

00:47:34.700 –> 00:47:36.700
which is not right, is it?

00:47:36.700 –> 00:47:39.700
Because we know that it ought to be here.

00:47:39.700 –> 00:47:46.700
So it looks like we had this great idea, but it doesn’t quite work

00:47:46.700 –> 00:47:49.700
until you figure out the secret.

00:47:49.700 –> 00:47:59.700
And Ouspensky silently and slyly introduces you to the secret.

00:47:59.700 –> 00:48:05.700
Somewhere around page 377 in his book, where he says,

00:48:05.700 –> 00:48:16.700
what would happen if this point three, which is in the triangle,

00:48:16.700 –> 00:48:22.700
in the inner circle, which is nothing in this scale,

00:48:22.700 –> 00:48:32.700
but is simultaneously at that point is the Do of a new octave of development.

00:48:32.700 –> 00:48:40.700
And if that’s the case, then you have Re, Mi, Fa.

00:48:40.700 –> 00:48:47.700
And you have then it falling correctly.

00:48:47.700 –> 00:48:54.700
Because this point comes between the Mi and the Fa

00:48:54.700 –> 00:48:58.700
in the second octave of development.

00:48:58.700 –> 00:49:02.700
Now, without laboring this,

00:49:02.700 –> 00:49:06.700
Ouspensky takes it apart and looks at it.

00:49:06.700 –> 00:49:10.700
But the implication of this, when you really start working it

00:49:10.700 –> 00:49:15.700
in the Gurdjieff work, is that the enneagram is not a closed circle

00:49:15.700 –> 00:49:19.700
in the terms of things coming back to exactly where they’re going on.

00:49:19.700 –> 00:49:22.700
Precisely in how you cross through these points,

00:49:22.700 –> 00:49:27.700
there’s the possibility for an open cycle, for a whole new line,

00:49:27.700 –> 00:49:32.700
for a whole new octave of development to start.

00:49:32.700 –> 00:49:34.700
Yeah, Lisa?

00:49:34.700 –> 00:49:36.700
Is it actually a spiral?

00:49:36.700 –> 00:49:38.700
Yes.

00:49:38.700 –> 00:49:40.700
Yeah, OK.

00:49:40.700 –> 00:49:42.700
So is it actually a spiral?

00:49:42.700 –> 00:49:44.700
Yeah.

00:49:44.700 –> 00:49:46.700
It doesn’t stop.

00:49:46.700 –> 00:49:49.700
And one of the things that has been the understatement

00:49:49.700 –> 00:49:54.700
in why the Enneagram of Personality movement can’t really

00:49:54.700 –> 00:49:57.700
catch the whole breadth of it is because it turns it

00:49:57.700 –> 00:50:03.700
into a one plane perpetual motion.

00:50:03.700 –> 00:50:07.700
So the nature of the very subtle transaction, which is implicit

00:50:07.700 –> 00:50:12.700
in these little sub-interpassages, is the possibility

00:50:12.700 –> 00:50:17.700
to launch whole new octaves of development.

00:50:17.700 –> 00:50:20.700
So it keeps creating and it keeps giving forth

00:50:20.700 –> 00:50:22.700
and it keeps moving on.

00:50:22.700 –> 00:50:24.700
Lisa?

00:50:24.700 –> 00:50:28.700
So I’m looking at my background, Enneagram stuff.

00:50:28.700 –> 00:50:34.700
So is that saying then that there’s a potential that as you move around

00:50:34.700 –> 00:50:39.700
the first time, you’re moving through man one, two, or three,

00:50:39.700 –> 00:50:44.700
coming to balance and then the next level of spiral

00:50:44.700 –> 00:50:47.700
would be man four and then progressing on?

00:50:47.700 –> 00:50:49.700
You’re getting the gist of it, yes.

00:50:49.700 –> 00:50:55.700
That as these passages, as these really tender little places

00:50:55.700 –> 00:50:58.700
are going through, it makes a huge difference

00:50:58.700 –> 00:51:02.700
whether it’s going through with consciousness or unconsciousness.

00:51:02.700 –> 00:51:06.700
And that the addition, the conscious addition

00:51:06.700 –> 00:51:10.700
in these very sensitive places where the interface is precisely happening,

00:51:10.700 –> 00:51:14.700
the potential of interface to break that element

00:51:14.700 –> 00:51:18.700
can launch a whole new, as it’s called in the work,

00:51:18.700 –> 00:51:21.700
octave of development.

00:51:21.700 –> 00:51:25.700
Now I’m not going to belabor that where it typically will go

00:51:25.700 –> 00:51:31.700
in the work is getting very, very embroiled in the food chains,

00:51:31.700 –> 00:51:36.700
the hydrogens, the oxygens, the more complex circles of feeding.

00:51:36.700 –> 00:51:39.700
And if you read in a sense, you’ll see how he does it,

00:51:39.700 –> 00:51:45.700
where each of these notes is equated with a chemical compound

00:51:45.700 –> 00:51:47.700
in one octave or another.

00:51:47.700 –> 00:51:49.700
So it gets complex.

00:51:49.700 –> 00:51:52.700
Those of you that want to dive into the complexity

00:51:52.700 –> 00:52:00.700
will discover tremendous work to meet you.

00:52:00.700 –> 00:52:04.700
I mean there is a body of knowledge here which is just extraordinary

00:52:04.700 –> 00:52:09.700
if you have the patience and the guidance to dig it out.

00:52:09.700 –> 00:52:14.700
But if you don’t, I think you can still catch the gist of this

00:52:14.700 –> 00:52:23.700
by understanding that these do cross precisely at these places of conscious shock

00:52:23.700 –> 00:52:29.700
and give you chances to inaugurate and sustain whole new levels of development.

00:52:29.700 –> 00:52:32.700
So the Enneagram is not–

00:52:32.700 –> 00:52:38.700
Ouspinsky called it a perpetual motion machine, and that’s true.

00:52:38.700 –> 00:52:42.700
But it’s not a perpetual motion machine the way we think about it

00:52:42.700 –> 00:52:46.700
in a closed circle that just keeps going around and around.

00:52:46.700 –> 00:52:53.700
It’s a vastly generative and open-ending cosmic force

00:52:53.700 –> 00:52:58.700
of creating and maintaining avenues, new ways of possibility,

00:52:58.700 –> 00:53:02.700
new ways of creation, new ways of calling into being energies

00:53:02.700 –> 00:53:05.700
that then can move back into the whole thing.

00:53:05.700 –> 00:53:10.700
So that would be just in a very questionistic way

00:53:10.700 –> 00:53:17.700
my sense of why a person who’s working with the Enneagram

00:53:17.700 –> 00:53:22.700
in a real authentic fourth-way lineage

00:53:22.700 –> 00:53:26.700
feels like you’ve just come inside from a spacious canopy of all stars

00:53:26.700 –> 00:53:29.700
into a little room with a six-foot ceiling.

00:53:29.700 –> 00:53:35.700
When you actually start working with it, it’s too closed

00:53:35.700 –> 00:53:40.700
and it doesn’t show you precisely what the Enneagram is supposed to do,

00:53:40.700 –> 00:53:46.700
which is really how the law conformable, as Gurdjieff called them,

00:53:46.700 –> 00:53:53.700
trajectories of new arisings arise inescapably

00:53:53.700 –> 00:53:57.700
at the interface places in this law.

00:53:57.700 –> 00:54:02.700
And that’s where the attention is really called to in the possibilities.

00:54:02.700 –> 00:54:07.700
So that would be an impressionistic capability.

00:54:07.700 –> 00:54:10.700
I was just wondering in terms of the chant,

00:54:10.700 –> 00:54:15.700
we’ve seen turn and stand, and then our first movement yesterday.

00:54:15.700 –> 00:54:20.700
Wasn’t it at three and eight that we get those turns?

00:54:20.700 –> 00:54:22.700
Yes.

00:54:22.700 –> 00:54:26.700
So is there some kind of alignment there?

00:54:26.700 –> 00:54:28.700
Could be.

00:54:28.700 –> 00:54:31.700
I would say as you wake up in the work,

00:54:31.700 –> 00:54:35.700
nonetheless, it’s coincidental.

00:54:35.700 –> 00:54:37.700
Or if it’s coincidental on one level,

00:54:37.700 –> 00:54:40.700
on another octave, it’s completely law-abiding.

00:54:40.700 –> 00:54:42.700
Yeah, Bob?

00:54:42.700 –> 00:54:48.700
So a new octave began at the shock of three,

00:54:48.700 –> 00:54:53.700
and that would take you to Do, Re, Mi with a shock at six.

00:54:53.700 –> 00:54:56.700
Does that then begin another do?

00:54:56.700 –> 00:54:58.700
It can, yep.

00:54:58.700 –> 00:55:02.700
And a shock at eight also begin another.

00:55:02.700 –> 00:55:05.700
Because in very few spaces,

00:55:05.700 –> 00:55:09.700
you have this very complex interweaving of octaves.

00:55:09.700 –> 00:55:12.700
And they’re all interpenetrating.

00:55:12.700 –> 00:55:13.700
Yes, exactly.

00:55:13.700 –> 00:55:16.700
And there’s also another little thing that’s a technicality,

00:55:16.700 –> 00:55:19.700
and I don’t even know whether to throw it on the floor.

00:55:19.700 –> 00:55:25.700
But when he talks about the whole move that we’ll get into,

00:55:25.700 –> 00:55:29.700
you’ve read some of you in the mythology that you read,

00:55:29.700 –> 00:55:34.700
that when his Holy Father, Unicosmic Endlessness,

00:55:34.700 –> 00:55:38.700
realized that he had to change the nature of the functioning

00:55:38.700 –> 00:55:42.700
of the intervals in the Law of Seven

00:55:42.700 –> 00:55:48.700
to create something that came against the force of time/entropy,

00:55:48.700 –> 00:55:54.700
that he adjusted those two, the Mi-Fa, the third stop-inder,

00:55:54.700 –> 00:55:56.700
and the Si-Do, the last one.

00:55:56.700 –> 00:56:01.700
But that also resulted in disharmonizing, as he calls it,

00:56:01.700 –> 00:56:03.700
the fifth one, the Sol-La.

00:56:03.700 –> 00:56:08.700
And so you get a little bit of a– right there in the Sol-La place,

00:56:08.700 –> 00:56:12.700
you get a little bit of an edginess even there.

00:56:12.700 –> 00:56:15.700
So the whole thing, yes, it’s completely interweaving.

00:56:15.700 –> 00:56:20.700
And creation and creativity happens as these lines cross,

00:56:20.700 –> 00:56:25.700
and the possibility that is implicit in that crossing

00:56:25.700 –> 00:56:27.700
articulates itself.

00:56:27.700 –> 00:56:31.700
I’m thinking of the– this is probably much more metaphorical

00:56:31.700 –> 00:56:38.700
than scientific– but complexity theory and fractals,

00:56:38.700 –> 00:56:42.700
where you have a structure, a rather simple structure,

00:56:42.700 –> 00:56:46.700
of rules out of which flows this incredible, evolving,

00:56:46.700 –> 00:56:49.700
complex beauty.

00:56:49.700 –> 00:56:51.700
Yeah, yeah.

00:56:51.700 –> 00:56:54.700
Gurdjieff was certainly onto that.

00:56:54.700 –> 00:56:55.700
Yeah.

00:56:55.700 –> 00:56:58.700
And it’s true that in modern places of science,

00:56:58.700 –> 00:57:03.700
now that science is catching up and sociology is catching up

00:57:03.700 –> 00:57:08.700
with things that were glimpsed by Gurdjieff 100 years ago,

00:57:08.700 –> 00:57:11.700
that we’re beginning to see this knowledge percolating

00:57:11.700 –> 00:57:12.700
in different forms.

00:57:12.700 –> 00:57:15.700
I’m told there’s a fellow at Harvard who basically

00:57:15.700 –> 00:57:18.700
deduced the Law of Three.

00:57:18.700 –> 00:57:21.700
Straight cold out of– I was teaching with Richard Rohr back

00:57:21.700 –> 00:57:23.700
in 2005, and someone came up and said this,

00:57:23.700 –> 00:57:25.700
and unfortunately I lost the reference to it.

00:57:25.700 –> 00:57:27.700
But it’s not surprising.

00:57:27.700 –> 00:57:31.700
If these are cosmic truths, when a certain level

00:57:31.700 –> 00:57:36.700
of understanding is held, when a certain Do is held

00:57:36.700 –> 00:57:42.700
in the culture, the truth will inevitably, spontaneously

00:57:42.700 –> 00:57:44.700
percolate forward.

00:57:44.700 –> 00:57:46.700
And not by people having read Gurdjieff,

00:57:46.700 –> 00:57:50.700
but by people being able to hold that note.

00:57:50.700 –> 00:57:55.700
So what I’m– when I started to share some of this

00:57:55.700 –> 00:58:01.700
with the people at the Enneagram in the Narrative Tradition

00:58:01.700 –> 00:58:04.700
conference a couple years ago, there was great excitement.

00:58:04.700 –> 00:58:07.700
Because people were realizing that their little Enneagram

00:58:07.700 –> 00:58:11.700
movement was stuck on that Mi-Fa passage.

00:58:11.700 –> 00:58:15.700
And one of the women who was my host there was saying,

00:58:15.700 –> 00:58:18.700
why can’t we apply the Enneagram to solve

00:58:18.700 –> 00:58:20.700
our own organizational problem?

00:58:20.700 –> 00:58:24.700
But it was because they hadn’t quite seen yet

00:58:24.700 –> 00:58:27.700
the implicit– they don’t have the language

00:58:27.700 –> 00:58:31.700
about the stop-indors and the mini, the little stop-inders.

00:58:31.700 –> 00:58:34.700
And when this piece comes back– and I

00:58:34.700 –> 00:58:36.700
don’t know how the Enneagram of Personality people

00:58:36.700 –> 00:58:38.700
are going to get to it.

00:58:38.700 –> 00:58:40.700
But when they do, it’s a whole new ballpark.

00:58:40.700 –> 00:58:43.700
You can get rid of a lot of this kind of midrash

00:58:43.700 –> 00:58:46.700
that’s growing up that doesn’t really

00:58:46.700 –> 00:58:50.700
have any basis whatsoever in an understanding

00:58:50.700 –> 00:58:53.700
of the actual physical working of this law.

00:58:53.700 –> 00:58:56.700
And begin instead to follow more deeply

00:58:56.700 –> 00:58:58.700
into some of these lines of development

00:58:58.700 –> 00:59:02.700
that are there in Ouspensky and are there in Beelzebub,

00:59:02.700 –> 00:59:04.700
if you really, really want to dig.

00:59:04.700 –> 00:59:06.700
And certainly there in Bennett.

00:59:06.700 –> 00:59:09.700
He probably took it farther than anybody else

00:59:09.700 –> 00:59:15.700
in trying to make a practical transformative teaching out of it.

00:59:15.700 –> 00:59:19.700
And one of the ways we have it– I’ll put this back up again–

00:59:19.700 –> 00:59:22.700
the Enneagram of the Kitchen.

00:59:22.700 –> 00:59:26.700
And I’m going to say just a few words about that

00:59:26.700 –> 00:59:31.700
and then invite either Georgia or Amy to maybe say a few more.

00:59:31.700 –> 00:59:36.700
But this is a classic way in which– it’s probably

00:59:36.700 –> 00:59:40.700
Mr. Bennett’s most famous diagram.

00:59:40.700 –> 00:59:44.700
It’s all over everywhere, which suggests

00:59:44.700 –> 00:59:52.700
how you use the Enneagram to discern lines of movement in work

00:59:52.700 –> 00:59:56.700
and what the true direction of a process is.

00:59:56.700 –> 01:00:02.700
And whereas you think– where you think that on the outside here,

01:00:02.000 –> 01:00:06.000
you have the life– if you follow the sevens, the green–

01:00:06.700 –> 01:00:10.700
the steps in theoretical, chronological order.

01:00:10.700 –> 01:00:13.700
If you’re going to get ready, the kitchen’s going to make a meal.

01:00:13.700 –> 01:00:15.700
Well, it’s ready for work.

01:00:15.700 –> 01:00:16.700
And then it works.

01:00:16.700 –> 01:00:18.700
You bring in the food.

01:00:18.700 –> 01:00:19.700
You prepare the food.

01:00:19.700 –> 01:00:20.700
You cook the food.

01:00:20.700 –> 01:00:23.700
The community is summoned in.

01:00:23.700 –> 01:00:24.700
You serve the meal.

01:00:24.700 –> 01:00:26.700
You eat the meal.

01:00:26.700 –> 01:00:29.700
So that’s what it looks like around the surface

01:00:29.700 –> 01:00:32.700
is quote, quote, sequential order.

01:00:32.700 –> 01:00:36.700
But actually, if the meal is going to come together

01:00:36.700 –> 01:00:44.700
and not be a shambles, it has to take a different order.

01:00:44.700 –> 01:00:49.700
For it to be ready for work– before you can prepare the–

01:00:49.700 –> 01:00:53.700
you have to– before you can actually get the kitchen ready for work,

01:00:53.700 –> 01:00:57.700
you have to have a sense of what food you’re going to prepare.

01:00:57.700 –> 01:01:03.700
Because if you’re going to have a course that has mashed potatoes in it

01:01:03.700 –> 01:01:06.700
and you don’t have potato peelers on hand,

01:01:06.700 –> 01:01:09.700
the work is going to get stymied.

01:01:09.700 –> 01:01:11.700
So you get the thing.

01:01:11.700 –> 01:01:15.700
And the kitchen at work already has to do with–

01:01:15.700 –> 01:01:19.700
it’s already in relationship to the eating of the meal.

01:01:19.700 –> 01:01:23.700
That how you work, how you prepare is always coming back from a picture.

01:01:23.700 –> 01:01:26.700
Well, what is actually the finished product going to look like?

01:01:26.700 –> 01:01:34.700
So I will invite either Amy or Georgia to explicate this diagram a little bit more

01:01:34.700 –> 01:01:37.700
because I haven’t studied it in recent years

01:01:37.700 –> 01:01:41.700
and I’ve only once or twice lived working in a Gurdjieff kitchen.

01:01:41.700 –> 01:01:47.700
But the idea is that there is an outer sequential line of development in the world

01:01:47.700 –> 01:01:51.700
and if you simply follow that, you’re a victim of it.

01:01:51.700 –> 01:01:58.700
But if you can understand what the points are along that inner line of development,

01:01:58.700 –> 01:02:01.700
you can bring a preparedness to a situation.

01:02:01.700 –> 01:02:05.700
You can anticipate where stuck places are going to occur.

01:02:05.700 –> 01:02:08.700
You can understand why they’re occurring if they do.

01:02:08.700 –> 01:02:12.700
And you can see what direction you have to look

01:02:12.700 –> 01:02:17.700
to bring the real forward movement again.

01:02:17.700 –> 01:02:23.700
So it becomes and is frequently worked with, particularly in the Bennett line of work,

01:02:23.700 –> 01:02:32.700
as a tool for really understanding the inside as well as the outside of process

01:02:32.700 –> 01:02:37.700
and understand that the lines of movement that you’re moving when you move in movement

01:02:37.700 –> 01:02:42.700
are exactly the same lines of movement and you’re using and you’re traversing

01:02:42.700 –> 01:02:46.700
as you work in the world.

01:02:46.700 –> 01:02:50.700
And it gives you the advantage of four-handedness

01:02:50.700 –> 01:02:56.700
in beginning to bring conscious attention to how process is going to go.

01:02:56.700 –> 01:03:00.700
And almost nobody is still thinking in those terms.

01:03:00.700 –> 01:03:04.700
Some of the people in the Enneagram, the narrative tradition,

01:03:04.700 –> 01:03:07.700
are beginning to say, Well, these lines of movement,

01:03:07.700 –> 01:03:11.700
might that have something to do with how we organized our institutional culture?

01:03:11.700 –> 01:03:13.700
Yeah, yeah.

01:03:13.700 –> 01:03:22.700
But so these are the arenas of application which interest, in a particular way,

01:03:22.700 –> 01:03:26.700
the people that are really working in bona fide fourth-way work.

01:03:26.700 –> 01:03:29.700
And of course, if you could get a group of people together

01:03:29.700 –> 01:03:38.700
who were in some sense authorized, that had standing in this kind of inquiry,

01:03:38.700 –> 01:03:41.700
think of how many snafus you could do.

01:03:41.700 –> 01:03:44.700
I mean, okay, let’s apply it to Obamacare.

01:03:44.700 –> 01:03:53.700
You know, there are a billion applications out in the world

01:03:53.700 –> 01:03:58.700
that so far have just ended in models

01:03:58.700 –> 01:04:02.700
because people don’t understand the lines of development.

01:04:02.700 –> 01:04:07.700
And they don’t understand, particularly, they can’t even follow the seven,

01:04:07.700 –> 01:04:09.700
you know, the linear sequence along that,

01:04:09.700 –> 01:04:13.700
much less understanding the opportunities that occur

01:04:13.700 –> 01:04:20.700
when the three, the Law of New Xreation, begins to interface at certain points.

01:04:20.700 –> 01:04:22.700
Yeah, come here.

01:04:22.700 –> 01:04:25.700

Could you give some examples of how that would work?

01:04:25.700 –> 01:04:27.700

Well, let’s see.

01:04:27.700 –> 01:04:30.700
I mean, let me turn the floor over to Amy or Georgia,

01:04:30.700 –> 01:04:33.700
if either of you would want to add anything at this point

01:04:33.700 –> 01:04:38.700
about how you’ve worked with this over the years here in this place.

01:04:38.700 –> 01:04:41.700

I prefer to Amy because she’s been working in the kitchen.

01:04:41.700 –> 01:04:44.700
laughter

01:04:44.700 –> 01:04:47.700
I’ve got a couple of things to say, and if Amy doesn’t say them, I’ll say them.

01:04:47.700 –> 01:04:49.700

Okay.

01:04:49.700 –> 01:04:52.700

Let’s see.

01:04:52.700 –> 01:04:55.700
We’ve used this a lot, particularly in the kitchen.

01:04:55.700 –> 01:04:58.700
I think you have put it really well, Cynthia,

01:04:58.700 –> 01:05:01.700
and have covered most of the specifics about it.

01:05:01.700 –> 01:05:05.700
What I would add is that working with the Enneagram

01:05:05.700 –> 01:05:09.700
allows the expanded present moment so that you see it as a whole

01:05:09.700 –> 01:05:11.700
and you see the relationships,

01:05:11.700 –> 01:05:15.700
because if you walk in and follow these exterior lines,

01:05:15.700 –> 01:05:21.700
you tend to get isolated and identified with what’s immediately in front of you.

01:05:21.700 –> 01:05:24.700
And these are about relationships.

01:05:24.700 –> 01:05:27.700
So you’re preparing a meal–we often used it for–

01:05:27.700 –> 01:05:30.700
we have Gurdjieff Feasts in January–

01:05:30.700 –> 01:05:33.700
and you’re serving for 150 people.

01:05:33.700 –> 01:05:36.700
So you need to be aware of what happens.

01:05:36.700 –> 01:05:38.700
What do we need to serve the meal?

01:05:38.700 –> 01:05:42.700
We’re not just about focused on cooking the meal.

01:05:42.700 –> 01:05:46.700
So it’s a really dynamic tool,

01:05:46.700 –> 01:05:50.700
and we’ve used it for the future of Claymont.

01:05:50.700 –> 01:05:52.700
What does the community look like?

01:05:52.700 –> 01:05:54.700
Where are we going?

01:05:54.700 –> 01:05:57.700
Why the inner lines, too.

01:05:57.700 –> 01:05:59.700
That gets really complicated,

01:05:59.700 –> 01:06:02.700
and it does spin off other smaller Enneagrams, too.

01:06:02.700 –> 01:06:05.700
How does that make a difference to your planning

01:06:05.700 –> 01:06:08.700
when you use that as a tool?

01:06:08.700 –> 01:06:12.700
Can you say how it landed you in a different place

01:06:12.700 –> 01:06:16.700
from if you’d just come at that with usual consultation skills?

01:06:16.700 –> 01:06:20.700
Well, you tend to have a way to–

01:06:20.700 –> 01:06:24.700
you forget things if you’re doing it in a linear way.

01:06:24.700 –> 01:06:26.700
It’s like what you were saying about potatoes.

01:06:26.700 –> 01:06:29.700
You ever want to make mashed potatoes for 150 people?

01:06:29.700 –> 01:06:31.700
Oh, what does that mean?

01:06:31.700 –> 01:06:33.700
It means you have to have the peelers, the potatoes,

01:06:33.700 –> 01:06:35.700
the people who can prepare it.

01:06:35.000 –> 01:06:37.000
You have to make sure you’ve stowed,

01:06:37.700 –> 01:06:41.700
that you have pots and pans that are significantly sized.

01:06:41.700 –> 01:06:44.700
And that’s what I mean by the expanded present moment

01:06:44.700 –> 01:06:46.700
of the whole thing.

01:06:46.700 –> 01:06:48.700
You can see it as a whole

01:06:48.700 –> 01:06:51.700
in the individual pieces and in something–

01:06:51.700 –> 01:06:55.700
what seems to be a simple preparing a meal,

01:06:55.700 –> 01:06:57.700
because we do it a lot here,

01:06:57.700 –> 01:07:00.700
but when you’re preparing a meal for, say, a large group–

01:07:00.700 –> 01:07:02.700
I mean, Peter does it instinctively.

01:07:02.700 –> 01:07:04.700
He knows those lines.

01:07:04.700 –> 01:07:06.700
He knows how to expand that,

01:07:06.700 –> 01:07:08.700
because he’s worked with it enough.

01:07:08.700 –> 01:07:11.700
He was saying to me, Yeah, I don’t need that Enneagram.

01:07:11.700 –> 01:07:13.700
I asked him if he was going to miss it.

01:07:13.700 –> 01:07:15.700
He said, No, I’ve internalized it enough

01:07:15.700 –> 01:07:17.700
that I don’t need it anymore.

01:07:17.700 –> 01:07:19.700
Yeah, Jonathan.

01:07:19.700 –> 01:07:22.700
Amy, is there a starting point or not?

01:07:22.700 –> 01:07:26.700
The starting point is for the kitchen at ready.

01:07:26.700 –> 01:07:31.700
But you can see how none of these things are isolated.

01:07:31.700 –> 01:07:33.700
So serving the meal–

01:07:33.700 –> 01:07:35.700
when you’re serving the meal,

01:07:35.700 –> 01:07:39.700
sitting down to serve the meal is that element of completion,

01:07:39.700 –> 01:07:41.700
but for the person who’s in charge,

01:07:41.700 –> 01:07:44.700
the chief cook, as we often are called here,

01:07:44.700 –> 01:07:48.700
the chief cook has to look towards bringing the kitchen back

01:07:48.700 –> 01:07:51.700
to being in a state of readiness.

01:07:51.700 –> 01:07:55.700
So it’s not like you go to sleep when you sit down and eat the meal.

01:07:55.700 –> 01:07:57.700
Everything isn’t done.

01:07:57.700 –> 01:08:00.700
The expanded present moment of serving the meal

01:08:00.700 –> 01:08:06.700
includes getting the kitchen back to being ready for the next meal.

01:08:06.700 –> 01:08:09.700
So if the shocks are–

01:08:09.700 –> 01:08:12.700
so if you went do re mi,

01:08:12.700 –> 01:08:20.700
so Cynthia put do at 9 and re at 1 and mi at 2,

01:08:20.700 –> 01:08:25.700
and then there was a shock that was needed that comes at .3,

01:08:25.700 –> 01:08:28.700
how is the raw food a shock?

01:08:28.700 –> 01:08:30.700
Well, the raw food is the unprepared–

01:08:30.700 –> 01:08:33.700
is the material that you’re working with,

01:08:33.700 –> 01:08:38.700
and when it’s raw, the shock is, I’ve got to transform this.

01:08:38.700 –> 01:08:42.700
And that gets transformed through chopping and cooking and preparing.

01:08:42.700 –> 01:08:47.700
And the other point that I’ve noticed a lot is this.

01:08:47.700 –> 01:08:53.700
Often at .5, there needs to be an energy that comes in

01:08:53.700 –> 01:08:55.700
that can bring you to completion,

01:08:55.700 –> 01:08:59.700
because there’s something that can happen in here

01:08:59.700 –> 01:09:02.700
where things tend to lag.

01:09:02.700 –> 01:09:07.700
Either people are tired or you’ve forgotten something,

01:09:07.700 –> 01:09:12.700
and something often–not always, but often–at this .5.

01:09:12.700 –> 01:09:16.700
And in this kitchen, it’s the fire, it’s the heat.

01:09:16.700 –> 01:09:22.700
That’s the change that transforms this into making it possible to serve.

01:09:22.700 –> 01:09:25.700
Wow. Wonderful, wonderful. Rose?

01:09:25.700 –> 01:09:28.700
You know, there’s a–

01:09:28.700 –> 01:09:34.700
with the wholeness way of looking at it,

01:09:34.700 –> 01:09:40.700
one word or two words that come to me is there’s an integrity

01:09:40.700 –> 01:09:46.700
and a nobleness that–I don’t know–that you bring,

01:09:46.700 –> 01:09:48.700
because if you bring your unconscious–

01:09:48.700 –> 01:09:53.700
well, you bring your unconscious, but if you bring your presence,

01:09:53.700 –> 01:09:58.700
then you’re living–you’re waking up into your wholeness

01:09:58.700 –> 01:10:03.700
and possibly have the blessing of bringing it to whatever your duty is,

01:10:03.700 –> 01:10:08.700
which collectively, if everyone is doing all of that,

01:10:08.700 –> 01:10:12.700
I just see the endless possibilities.

01:10:12.700 –> 01:10:15.700
Yeah. Georgia. Georgia, thank you.

01:10:15.700 –> 01:10:18.700
Well, Rose, thank you.

01:10:18.700 –> 01:10:21.700
The whole thing about presence is–

01:10:21.700 –> 01:10:23.700
because the point that I would make–

01:10:23.700 –> 01:10:27.700
and people, when they first come into the kitchen–

01:10:27.700 –> 01:10:31.700
I know I did, because I just adore to talk all the time–

01:10:31.700 –> 01:10:38.700
get resentful sometimes of this expectation

01:10:38.700 –> 01:10:43.700
that there will be very focused conversation only,

01:10:43.700 –> 01:10:49.700
focused on the meal, no chat, no gossip.

01:10:49.700 –> 01:10:54.700
But that presence, which silence–

01:10:54.700 –> 01:10:59.700
if it doesn’t actually make it happen, it certainly encourages it.

01:10:59.700 –> 01:11:07.700
That presence contributes a measure to the quality of the meal.

01:11:07.700 –> 01:11:09.700
Beautiful. Lisa.

01:11:09.700 –> 01:11:18.700
So the kitchen example is a movement.

01:11:18.700 –> 01:11:20.700
The kitchen is a movement.

01:11:20.700 –> 01:11:23.700
You see how it ties together.

01:11:23.700 –> 01:11:28.700
So we’re not just trooping into the barn at four for dancing.

01:11:28.700 –> 01:11:35.700
This is reinforcing, and what you’re doing is enacting,

01:11:35.700 –> 01:11:41.700
in some sense, liturgically and sacramentally in the movements,

01:11:41.700 –> 01:11:44.700
and thus imprinting at that level in your being

01:11:44.700 –> 01:11:48.700
the same lines of action, the same intelligences,

01:11:48.700 –> 01:11:53.700
the same kind of awareness that you can bring out into your life

01:11:53.700 –> 01:11:55.700
to orchestrate that.

01:11:55.700 –> 01:11:57.700
Yes.

01:11:57.700 –> 01:11:59.700
Could you explain the second shock point?

01:11:59.700 –> 01:12:01.700
It looks as if you’re moving on there,

01:12:01.700 –> 01:12:04.700
but yet as you explain the spiral emphasis,

01:12:04.700 –> 01:12:09.700
it would shift at some point to another level on the spiral.

01:12:09.700 –> 01:12:11.700
Yeah, they keep going around.

01:12:11.700 –> 01:12:13.700
If you follow them around, if you take a spin scan,

01:12:13.700 –> 01:12:17.700
it looks like–oh, no, I did bring it up.

01:12:17.700 –> 01:12:25.700
Let’s see if I was right about the page.

01:12:25.700 –> 01:12:29.700
What you’ll find on page 377–

01:12:29.700 –> 01:12:31.700
and I’ll actually let you look at this

01:12:31.700 –> 01:12:34.700
because my lousy drawing kind of misrepresents it–

01:12:34.700 –> 01:12:39.700
but what he does on this particular set of pages–

01:12:39.700 –> 01:12:41.700
maybe Bob wants that.

01:12:41.700 –> 01:12:43.700
I could do that.

01:12:43.700 –> 01:12:50.700
He labels these points not only with the Do, Re, Mi, as you’ve seen,

01:12:50.700 –> 01:12:53.700
but next to it is a number

01:12:53.700 –> 01:12:57.700
that represents a sort of chemical compound

01:12:57.700 –> 01:12:59.700
in the great food chain or chain of being

01:12:59.700 –> 01:13:02.700
that we’re going to talk about more tomorrow.

01:13:02.700 –> 01:13:04.700
You’ll see how he starts.

01:13:04.700 –> 01:13:09.700
He will start a–

01:13:09.700 –> 01:13:14.700
that this third point, this Mi, Fa,

01:13:14.700 –> 01:13:19.700
that this X that we haven’t given a number for in our original level around

01:13:19.700 –> 01:13:22.700
becomes the do in a new octave.

01:13:22.700 –> 01:13:24.700
You figure it right around,

01:13:24.700 –> 01:13:28.700
and what’s the Fa in the first octave is the Re in the second,

01:13:28.700 –> 01:13:34.700
and what’s the Fa or what’s the Sol in the first octave is the Mi in the second.

01:13:34.700 –> 01:13:36.700
You come around here,

01:13:36.700 –> 01:13:39.700
and this place where we put that X before

01:13:39.700 –> 01:13:44.700
becomes the Do of a new octave.

01:13:44.700 –> 01:13:46.700
When he gives you all the numbers,

01:13:46.700 –> 01:13:51.700
you can see it a little bit more clearly when we saw them in my diagram.

01:13:51.700 –> 01:13:52.700
Yeah, Diane?

01:13:52.700 –> 01:13:54.700
If you follow that around,

01:13:54.700 –> 01:13:57.700
and every time there’s an X, the first X,

01:13:57.700 –> 01:14:00.700
and you shift to the next octave to go around this fire,

01:14:00.700 –> 01:14:02.700
when do you ever get to that?

01:14:02.700 –> 01:14:05.700
You’ll never get to that second X.

01:14:05.700 –> 01:14:08.700
Well, you keep going in octaves.

01:14:08.700 –> 01:14:12.700
I know, but it’s always the first one that takes you into the next octave.

01:14:12.700 –> 01:14:13.700
The second one.

01:14:13.700 –> 01:14:17.700
Well, there’s a place where you will complete an octave without going into it.

01:14:17.700 –> 01:14:22.700
Octaves do reach their completion.

01:14:22.700 –> 01:14:26.700
I can’t–do you need an idea of visual–

01:14:26.700 –> 01:14:28.700
Yeah, yeah.

01:14:28.700 –> 01:14:31.700
Well, it’s because in one sense,

01:14:31.700 –> 01:14:36.700
at least this is how I would experience,

01:14:36.700 –> 01:14:43.700
is that the new octave that’s initiated

01:14:43.700 –> 01:14:49.700
brings into possibility a new level of awareness,

01:14:49.700 –> 01:14:51.700
a simultaneity.

01:14:51.700 –> 01:14:55.700
In my old language, I would say a more subtle reality enters.

01:14:55.700 –> 01:15:01.700
And so it’s not like it will necessarily divert the process

01:15:01.700 –> 01:15:05.700
onto a whole new avenue of–a whole new trajectory,

01:15:05.700 –> 01:15:11.700
but it will bring the energy that will allow that octave initiated

01:15:11.700 –> 01:15:13.700
to play itself out.

01:15:13.700 –> 01:15:16.700
Okay, so you’re just taking the energy from the second octave–

01:15:16.700 –> 01:15:19.700
Yeah, the different quality of presence, yeah.

01:15:19.700 –> 01:15:22.700
And you’re repeating it around the first–

01:15:22.700 –> 01:15:24.700
Yeah, yeah, different combinations happen.

01:15:24.700 –> 01:15:25.700
Yes?

01:15:25.700 –> 01:15:30.700
Is there some way that overtones make sense?

01:15:30.700 –> 01:15:34.700
I don’t understand the mathematics of overtones.

01:15:34.700 –> 01:15:35.700
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:15:35.700 –> 01:15:37.700
This is all wrapped up in here.

01:15:37.700 –> 01:15:40.700
This is why we’re saying without–

01:15:40.700 –> 01:15:45.700
and I don’t want to just belabor it to death here.

01:15:45.700 –> 01:15:48.700
It’s why people will spend their lives working in this.

01:15:48.700 –> 01:15:52.700
What happened–and the major thing for you to be aware of

01:15:52.700 –> 01:15:56.700
as you are dilettantes in this

01:15:56.700 –> 01:16:04.700
is that there is hardcore science behind this.

01:16:04.700 –> 01:16:09.700
And most people didn’t want to believe that when they first saw it.

01:16:09.700 –> 01:16:14.700
They would say that he’s just this other crazy folk balladeer

01:16:14.700 –> 01:16:17.700
that went off to Asia and found some cute old men

01:16:17.700 –> 01:16:20.700
that taught wonderful truths and brought them back

01:16:20.700 –> 01:16:26.700
and messed them up or dressed them up in crazy scientific garb.

01:16:26.700 –> 01:16:31.700
But remember, he showed up just about the time

01:16:31.700 –> 01:16:34.700
that Einstein was creating his rumblings

01:16:34.700 –> 01:16:39.700
and that he was bringing back what he knew

01:16:39.700 –> 01:16:44.700
to the last trappings of an old order.

01:16:44.700 –> 01:16:49.700
And what’s really fascinating is that as people start working in science today

01:16:49.700 –> 01:16:56.700
and get more comfortable with the Einsteinian principles than cosmology,

01:16:56.700 –> 01:17:03.700
it’s amazing how many of the clues that he gave us in Beelzebub’s Tales

01:17:03.700 –> 01:17:09.700
are actually corroborated, being corroborated by science.

01:17:09.700 –> 01:17:13.700
So that you’re dealing with something that is not just the usual concoction

01:17:13.700 –> 01:17:16.700
of myth, metaphor, and fantasy

01:17:16.700 –> 01:17:22.700
that most of these cosmological traditions are based on.

01:17:22.700 –> 01:17:28.700
He actually was very insistent that there’s hard physics involved here.

01:17:28.700 –> 01:17:31.700
And once you learn the physics, we are talking about things

01:17:31.700 –> 01:17:35.700
that make this world work,

01:17:35.700 –> 01:17:39.700
not some metaphorical world that we call the spiritual world.

01:17:39.700 –> 01:17:44.700
And one of the pieces that just was added in for me

01:17:44.700 –> 01:17:49.700
just three weeks ago when I was out in San Francisco

01:17:49.700 –> 01:17:55.700
and did a guest presentation at the Science in Non-Duality Conference.

01:17:55.700 –> 01:17:59.700
And my little thing on Centering Prayer was wedged in in some curious way

01:17:59.700 –> 01:18:07.700
between two cosmologists talking about concepts that are actually being possible now

01:18:07.700 –> 01:18:13.700
as you’ve got telescopes and the math to extend way, way, way, way, way out beyond anything.

01:18:13.700 –> 01:18:18.700
And basically what they were saying, they were viciously anti-religious.

01:18:18.700 –> 01:18:22.700
Which was a little bit of a problem in the dialogue.

01:18:22.700 –> 01:18:24.700
But they were saying–

01:18:24.700 –> 01:18:29.700
laughter

01:18:29.700 –> 01:18:32.700
And like most people that are viciously anti-religious,

01:18:32.700 –> 01:18:36.700
they’re just bouncing off stereotypes and reactions

01:18:36.700 –> 01:18:40.700
to the kind of religion they ran screaming from when they were 14.

01:18:40.700 –> 01:18:42.700
Their ideologues.

01:18:42.700 –> 01:18:51.700
But the interesting points they made was that as you really, really go out there

01:18:51.700 –> 01:18:54.700
along the plane of the cosmos,

01:18:54.700 –> 01:18:58.700
you don’t need to invent any sort of vertical hierarchy.

01:18:58.700 –> 01:19:02.700
So that the old kind of things that you say,

01:19:02.700 –> 01:19:05.700
that we’ve learned from the traditional philosophy

01:19:05.700 –> 01:19:09.700
about how there’s the gross material world

01:19:09.700 –> 01:19:12.700
and then higher above it is something called the imaginal

01:19:12.700 –> 01:19:16.700
and higher above it is something called the archangelic.

01:19:16.700 –> 01:19:22.700
That these maps that sort of give you one chord on the material plane

01:19:22.700 –> 01:19:27.700
and one on a so-called spiritual plane,

01:19:27.700 –> 01:19:35.700
which have dominated metaphysics for at least 2,500 years,

01:19:35.700 –> 01:19:40.700
are not necessary once you move things out.

01:19:40.700 –> 01:19:45.700
Because beyond a certain point, if you just go out,

01:19:45.700 –> 01:19:51.700
the time dimensions, the things that we consider the coordinates collapse.

01:19:51.700 –> 01:19:53.700
There is no time.

01:19:53.700 –> 01:19:58.700
There is no functional distinction between matter and spirit.

01:19:58.700 –> 01:20:03.700
And so you don’t have to get off the planet.

01:20:03.700 –> 01:20:06.700
You don’t have to get out of this cosmology

01:20:06.700 –> 01:20:12.700
in order to enter these realms that mystics have been talking about.

01:20:12.700 –> 01:20:16.700
The tension is not between a vertical axis and a horizontal axis.

01:20:16.700 –> 01:20:23.700
There’s a whole swirling nebula that exists simply by the extension

01:20:23.700 –> 01:20:28.700
of the physical to the point where the physical can’t be the physical anymore.

01:20:28.700 –> 01:20:32.700
So it is really one world.

01:20:32.700 –> 01:20:37.700
And Gurdjieff was on top of that so long ago.

01:20:37.700 –> 01:20:43.700
And the one thing that I most love about his work over the years

01:20:43.700 –> 01:20:49.700
is that he simply would not let people get away with this matter-spirit dichotomy.

01:20:49.700 –> 01:20:53.700
He said, It’s all matter.

01:20:53.700 –> 01:20:57.700
There is no place where there’s a change in substance.

01:20:57.700 –> 01:21:03.700
And when something finer enters you,

01:21:03.700 –> 01:21:11.700
it’s not this little thing that we so quickly label with a spiritual label,

01:21:11.700 –> 01:21:14.700
grace, the Holy Spirit,

01:21:14.700 –> 01:21:22.700
which simply reinforces the spiritual laziness

01:21:22.700 –> 01:21:27.700
of saying that everything that we consider invisible belongs to spirit.

01:21:27.700 –> 01:21:38.700
And instead forces us to come back and understand how everything nests here.

01:21:38.700 –> 01:21:43.700
And Jacob Boehme, the great mystic,

01:21:43.700 –> 01:21:48.700
the great 17th century mystic that I love so much,

01:21:48.700 –> 01:21:53.700
says, People don’t go away when they die.

01:21:53.700 –> 01:21:57.700
It’s not like you have to traverse,

01:21:57.700 –> 01:22:02.700
it’s not like you go way out of the galaxy and then you come to this other place.

01:22:02.700 –> 01:22:08.700
But everything exists that Burma says,

01:22:08.700 –> 01:22:14.700
The dead live right where they fall.

01:22:14.700 –> 01:22:18.700
There’s no elsewhere.

01:22:18.700 –> 01:22:27.700
What there is is finer and finer circles of dimensionality,

01:22:27.700 –> 01:22:33.700
of energy, of intelligence, within and through these circles.

01:22:33.700 –> 01:22:37.700
And that as we begin to attune,

01:22:37.700 –> 01:22:41.700
and in the Gurdjieff work, if you want the rope of Allah,

01:22:41.700 –> 01:22:43.700
as the Sufis call it,

01:22:43.700 –> 01:22:48.700
the one thing you can hang on to to begin to connect you and ground you

01:22:48.700 –> 01:22:54.700
in a turning universe, it is your attention.

01:22:54.700 –> 01:22:56.700
Okay? Darlene?

01:22:56.700 –> 01:23:00.700
What’s coming to mind for me is you talk about matter being all the way up

01:23:00.700 –> 01:23:02.700
and all the way down is the word transubstantiation.

01:23:02.700 –> 01:23:03.700
Yeah.

01:23:03.700 –> 01:23:06.700
We tend to think of that as, oh, matter gets suddenly,

01:23:06.700 –> 01:23:08.700
mysteriously transformed into spirit.

01:23:08.700 –> 01:23:10.700
That’s the platonic.

01:23:10.700 –> 01:23:14.700
Transubstantiation from one substance to another.

01:23:14.700 –> 01:23:15.700
Yeah.

01:23:15.700 –> 01:23:17.700
And in terms of the diagram,

01:23:17.700 –> 01:23:19.700
this may be more than we want to talk about right now,

01:23:19.700 –> 01:23:24.700
but I think Diane’s question was addressing how did the octaves actually

01:23:24.700 –> 01:23:27.700
progress around that.

01:23:27.700 –> 01:23:30.700
And I’ve been sitting here, this is just off the top of my head,

01:23:30.700 –> 01:23:35.700
but if you look at that, the three octaves that,

01:23:35.700 –> 01:23:38.700
the Do to Fa, the three octaves that overlap in one cycle

01:23:38.700 –> 01:23:40.700
around the edge of the circle,

01:23:40.700 –> 01:23:47.700
you have one form of life being transformed to become another form of life.

01:23:47.700 –> 01:23:55.700
It’s like your rabbit and dandelion story from nine to —

01:23:55.000 –> 01:23:58.000
the first Mi-Fa would be from nine around to three.

01:23:58.700 –> 01:24:01.700
So from life out there, a plant or whatever,

01:24:01.700 –> 01:24:07.700
it comes into the kitchen and that plant is transformed to be useful

01:24:07.700 –> 01:24:10.700
in the kitchen process.

01:24:10.700 –> 01:24:14.700
And then the next octave starting at the raw food to community,

01:24:14.700 –> 01:24:20.700
the plant, which is actually now dead because it’s been harvested,

01:24:20.700 –> 01:24:26.700
is transformed from raw to cooked so that it can be useful to the community.

01:24:26.700 –> 01:24:30.700
And from six back to nine, go back to one again,

01:24:30.700 –> 01:24:38.700
the community takes in the food and their life is on the next level.

01:24:38.700 –> 01:24:44.700
So when you get back to nine and to one, you’ve had that —

01:24:44.700 –> 01:24:49.700
you’ve achieved your initial aim of we’re going to take one form of life

01:24:49.700 –> 01:24:51.700
and turn it into another form of life.

01:24:51.700 –> 01:24:53.700
Excellent.

01:24:53.700 –> 01:24:54.700
Yeah.

01:24:54.700 –> 01:25:01.700
And for me, spiritually, this is a place that would —

01:25:01.700 –> 01:25:08.700
after Job has been lifted up to see the wholeness of the cosmos

01:25:08.700 –> 01:25:13.700
and comes back to say the ashes to ashes and dust to dust comment,

01:25:13.700 –> 01:25:18.700
it’s not an atonement comment about his unworthiness,

01:25:18.700 –> 01:25:22.700
it’s an atonement comment about his transcendence.

01:25:22.700 –> 01:25:23.700
Brilliant.

01:25:23.700 –> 01:25:24.700
Yes.

01:25:25.700 –> 01:25:30.700
One of the most powerful glimpses I got from the courage you’ve worked

01:25:30.700 –> 01:25:36.700
is the notion of the scale of things, you know,

01:25:36.700 –> 01:25:44.700
and that true humility is actually born in us when we understand the scale of things.

01:25:44.700 –> 01:25:48.700
And Job is really about what he really got in there was a privileged witness.

01:25:48.700 –> 01:25:53.700
And because he has stood his ground in exactly the way of integrity,

01:25:53.700 –> 01:25:58.700
God lifted him up and allowed him to see the scale of things.

01:25:58.700 –> 01:26:02.700
And this thing that’s generally interpreted as repenting and ashes and dust

01:26:02.700 –> 01:26:11.700
is simply the awe that a being has when they finally see their place

01:26:11.700 –> 01:26:16.700
in the scheme of things, not through some artificial I am not worthy,

01:26:16.700 –> 01:26:19.700
but through the face of Ahh!

01:26:19.700 –> 01:26:21.700
Excellent.

01:26:21.700 –> 01:26:24.700
And very good work, Lisa, in taking in and taking these ideas

01:26:24.700 –> 01:26:30.700
and being able to sensitively interweave them with the biblical ground

01:26:30.700 –> 01:26:34.700
in such a way as to bring that ground alive.

01:26:34.700 –> 01:26:35.700
Very excellent.

01:26:35.700 –> 01:26:38.700
We need to stop now.